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I wasn't aware of any affordable mass produced EVs on the market.
"I wasn't aware of any affordable mass produced EVs on the market."
Obviously this would be done in a few years...
Just pass cap-and-trade and you won't have to worry about this. Emissions will be limited, and the market will determine the cheapest way to do so. It may turn out that continuing to drive our clunkers while heavily financing weatherization is actually a cheaper way to reduce emissions by the same amount. The market can actually do this more efficiently than the government can provided it's given the right price signals, which is what cap-and-trade is intended to do. So forget about clunkers and just pass cap-and-trade already.
I think one advantage of EV's is that they don't have to be newly manufactured. You can take old car bodies and add an electric motor and you have an EV. I wonder why the major car companies aren't concentrating on that side of the EV market. Why can't Ford (or other companies) allow people to keep their beloved Mustang (or whatever car), but just switch the engine for a motor? Then the dealer could get repeat business when battery technology was updated. I thought dealerships made more money on service than sales, anyway. I've been told this would be an expensive option, but I don't really understand why. Now we will be overrun by old car bodies, which is bad for the environment, too.
What do you think? Is my idea unfeasible for some reason? Anyone want to start a business with me?
Thank you Bill! I agree the current CARS program set the bar way too low.
Roland, the old cars aren't designed for electric power, so the conversions tend to come with a lot of downsides. The cars are too heavy, so performance and/or range are poor, the luggage space is taken up with batteries, the drivetrain isn't compatible, and there's not a good mechanism in place to provide regenerative braking.
"I wasn't aware of any affordable mass produced EVs on the market."
There are many electric vehicles available for the mass market. (No, I'm not talking about the Tesla Roadster). OK, they don't look like traditional all american cars, but they have four wheels, carry up to 4 passengers, and offer tremendous fuel economy:
http://www.plentyways.com/blog/2009/07/top-ten-electric-vehicles-on-the-market/
in the long run, this is very much positive for the creation of jobs and the environment if implemented and possible.
Freakin' awesome idea!
While converted electric cars are great, most vehicles are not suitable for conversions. If you look around for info on converted cars, most fall in a few narrow categories. Minivans don't work well for instance.
On the other hand, Nissan's LEAF offers a fantastic idea with thin batteries that can occupy the space underneath the car. And Michelin's Active Wheel removes the suspension and motors from within the the box leaving all kinds of space for other stuff. If we put those two together, we have basically a flat cart and we can put any kind of car on top of it we want. I digress.
Any boost that the electric car biz can get will be well worth it. And it need not go to the big auto companies, think Tesla, Aptera, or some other startup. Buy the electrics from AC or Siemens and build your own. The possibilities are endless.
It makes sense. If even half of the US vehicles were EVs then no dependence on foreign oil. However, the haters would be out in force like they are on cash 4 clunkers now.
I vote Yes on the "EVs for Clunkers" proposal.
Perhaps someday Americans will move out of the suburbs and into a more sustainable living arrangement where we can walk, bike, or take mass transit. Until then, electric vehicles are more sustainable than the traditional internal combustion engine cars.
Someday the world will reach a maximum of petroleum production, and electric vehicles are part of the solution.
Let's see what next year brings in the way of sales of the GM and Nissan and other EVs. Who knows, they may take off on their own if gas prices are high enough.
There are certain regions of the country that suffer from brown outs on a regular basis. There are also areas of the country that use mostly fossil fuel to generate electricity. Requiring even a small amount of additional electricity generation to these regions would have a negative impact on the local grid and/or the environment. Any cash for EV program should be promoted by the local PUD rather than by the FED.
Well, if the government is going to flush our money down the toilet on ridiculous programs, why stop with electric cars? Why not include jet packs powered by sunshine and unicorn farts? After all, it's only money.
yes EV's for clunkers would be a great idea in another year or 2 or 3. Have to have a big budget, 6-10 bil.
yes, the current cash for clunkers has been poorly implemented with the 'old' vehicles engines being wasted instead of used for parts.
@anonymous
i fear the US cap and trade system will do little to reduce emissions. The reasons being that most of the carbon credits are being given to big polluting industries like coal for FREE and some industries like logging and agriculture are exempt. These issues kind of negate the whole point of the system. Of course, it will still make wall street lots of money... Carbon tax would be better, simpler, less likely to be corrupted.
The Cash for Clunkers program is just the beginning. I'm afraid we're just going to have to get used to it. If this country's goal is energy independence, there will be massive programs to upgrade the fleet on a number of levels.
We need to take a multi-pronged approach. Electric doesn't solve all our near-time needs. The range and batteries just aren't there in quantity or at a competitive price (yet).
It will take a concerted effort to adopt natural gas for buses and truck fleets. This will free up diesel fuel for more efficient clean diesel passenger vehicles.
I think that's a good idea, but I agreed that should be done only in a few years. First cap and trade should be approved, and, more important, a new electric grid needs to be developed. The LEAF is already here, so we have at least one car. The major advantage, from my point of view, of this proposal is trying to solve the offer and demand problem. We need a large enough network of recharge points, but the network needs to have enough cars to be economically viable.
My suggestion is to retrofit existing clunkers to become EVs. I welcome your comments on Volts for Clunkers. Available here: http://tinyurl.com/nkocqk
How about mass transit for clunkers? The whole CARS program misses the point in how we can most successfully reduce fossil fuel consumption and emissions. If we really want to change habits, simply trading in for a nominally more fuel efficient car doesn't cut it. We still end up with the same number of cars on the road, still see an increase in the number of highways and highway lanes built, still see the same type of traffic congestion, etc. Get people out of cars as much as possible. Give families with two or (heaven forbid) more cars incentives to get rid of their excess cars in exchange for some sort of mass transit option. My wife and I dropped our second car two years ago. It was an adjustment, but we have found it to be liberating, not to mention much cheaper!!!
No point in starting a new program. We have one in operation, now, which gives tax credits for hybrid or other efficient new-tech vehicles, including fuel-cell. The only problem with it is that it limits the number of vehicles allowed. You no longer get a credit for buying a Prius. Howcum?
I guess the theory is that subsidizing "early purchasers" helps the industry "get on its feet" and reach production levels that allow "economies of scale", not to mention (possibly) bringing down the extremely high costs of the new technologies (batteries, fuel cells, etc.) at the same time.
Convert-A-Clunker? Not likely to take off. Mostly for "tinkerers", a group that should be encouraged, but they are very difficult to subsidize. Difficult to incorporate regenerative braking? I don't think so... it's all in the "controller". You use the electric motor to slow the vehicle, re-charging the batteries. Packaging those batteries is the biggest problem, but replacing an ICE (and its transmission and fuel tank) with an electric motor "frees up" a lot of (oddly-shaped) space. Making new-tech batteries more easily available might help.
In all, not a bad idea. Bill Clinton must be on good terms with Al Gore, yet.
"There are many electric vehicles available for the mass market. (No, I'm not talking about the Tesla Roadster). OK, they don't look like traditional all american cars, but they have four wheels, carry up to 4 passengers, and offer tremendous fuel economy:"
What I see at that URL are mostly 2-seaters, low speed (not legal on many US roads), not available in the US, or not yet in production, so I fail to see the "many vehicles available for the mass market" of which you speak.
"Difficult to incorporate regenerative braking? I don't think so... it's all in the 'controller'. You use the electric motor to slow the vehicle, re-charging the batteries."
As simple as that sounds, I think you are missing that the regen braking must be integrated along with the existing hydraulic braking and anti-lock (if applicable) system to apply the right balance of regen vs mechanical braking for any braking situation. Otherwise you can end up with a vehicle which is uncontrolable in emergency situations or on slippery surfaces or fails to stop if there is an electronic failure.
"As simple as that sounds, I think you are missing that the regen braking must be integrated along with the existing hydraulic braking and anti-lock (if applicable) system to apply the right balance of regen vs mechanical braking for any braking situation. Otherwise you can end up with a vehicle which is uncontrolable in emergency situations or on slippery surfaces or fails to stop if there is an electronic failure."
I have a Malibu Hybrid that has regenerative braking and I can assure you that there is NO relationship to the traditional vacuum assisted hydraulic braking system in the car. Fact of the matter is, the car slows pretty quickly during regen and I would be more comfortable if the brake lights would illuminate under maximum regeneration. I use far less brake pedal now than I would have thought possible.
"It's all in the controller" is, of course, an over-simplification, and, no, I do not understand all I know about this subject. Who says regenerative braking "must" be integrated with the hydraulic braking system? The gummint? I don't think so.
We are talking about "backyard mechanics" playing around with "automotive electrification", not some mass manufacturer making a vehicle for mass consumption. There must be many ways of incorporating regeneration without coordinating it with the brakes already in the vehicle... I'm thinking of a "trolley valve" type controller, myself, similar to those used on large trucks. I've driven large trucks with "retarders" which use hydraulics to slow the truck (making heat in the process) with an adjustable slider valve mounted to the dash.
No, it wouldn't be "idiot-proof", which would be necessary in a vehicle offered to the public, but, even if we were considering selling converted vehicles to the public, it's probably not impossible to develop a fool-proof system. You have to do something about the vacuum-over-hydraulic power brakes, in any case (no ICE, no vacuum).
"We are talking about "backyard mechanics" playing around with "automotive electrification", not some mass manufacturer making a vehicle for mass consumption."
YOU may be talking about backyard mechanics, but your previous statement was, I assume, in response to Bill W.'s comment that, "there's not a good mechanism in place to provide regenerative braking" in old cars, which was in response to Roland's suggestion of manufacturer supported conversions. Manufacturers would have to provide "idiot-proof" conversion systems and may be required by "the gummit" to adhere to applicable standards for those systems. In either case I doubt any sort of secondary brake control (lever, pedal, etc) would make it.
Great idea and a much better way to spend tax dollars to help the auto industry than bailout checks, at least this way (and with Cash 4 Clunkers) the tax payer gets some benefit also.
Have a sliding scale depending on the electrical range of the EV or PHEV, that way both tracks of production get a boost.
The Seattle EV Association, the LARGEST Electric Auto Association Chapter in the US.... VOTES for
"Electric's for Clunkers" unanimously… And Thank You Bill for Seconding the Motion.
Steve Lough
President
Seattle EV Association
I think that this is a great idea as long as the money didn't go to major manufacturers. The small EV conversion shops are dedicated and make very little money. Conversion parts are expensive and the process is labor intensive. If these small shops could be subsidized (like oil, nuclear, etc - that shouldn't be getting it) then we could get more EV's on the road sooner and increase public awareness and acceptance. Some of these clunker cars would make good short range EV's, and although not optimum, would still serve the purpose of substituting gas guzzlers with EV's.
I suggest a hybrid scheme. No, not hybrid vehices, but bigger benefits for those that convert to publc transport, and even bigger to those that walk or go by bicycle to work / school. Those that really, really feel thaey need to buy another motordriven personal transportatoin device, could get for instance 60% of what the user of public transprt gets.
The idea of individually alotted , personal CO2 quotas, that are tradeable, could also be a way to go ? Every gas gallon would discount your CO2 quota etc. If you have ran out of quotas, go buy from the linited demand of traded personal ( and business) quotas.
Best thing would be to provide a government guarantee for loans to purchase EV's. 10 year loans at low interest with a government guarantee would make them affordable. That's assuming that the vehicles would be designed to last that long. Or cities could purchase quantities of the vehicles and rent them to residents in a non-profit way for commuting.